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PORTSIDE CULTURE

RIEFENSTAHL EXPOSES THE NAZIS’ FAVORITE FILMMAKER  
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An interview with Andres Veiel
September 21, 2025
Jacobin
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_ Darkly influential, the cinema of Nazi propagandist Leni
Riefenstahl is a powerful blend of art and propaganda. She’s now the
subject of a new documentary that wrestles with the question of the
culpability of a talented artist working for a vile regi _

Between art and propaganda, real cinematic invention and atrocious
kitsch, Nazi-era film director Leni Riefenstahl left behind a
complicated record. A new documentary from Andres Veiel explores her
legacy. , (Corbis via Getty Images)

 

Interview by
Ed Rampell [[link removed]]

When the Nazi elite is remembered, two prominent women likely come to
mind: Adolf Hitler’s partner Eva Braun and
dancer-turned-actress-turned-director Leni Riefenstahl.

Today, Riefenstahl’s cinematic influence is frustratingly
undeniable. It was her striking and unsettlingly staged documentaries
that first brought the pageantry of Nazism onto the world stage in
works like _Triumph of the Will_ (1935) and _Olympia_ (1938), her
film on the 1936 Olympic Games held in Berlin. Echoes of
Riefenstahl’s aesthetic can today be seen in films as diverse as the
finale to the original _Star Wars_ to the work of legendary director
(and passionate leftist) Orson Welles, who famously and reluctantly
praised Riefenstahl’s cinematic talents on national television.
Leni, who Andres Veiel calls “a prototype of fascism,” is now the
subject of the German director’s new documentary _Riefenstahl_, now
in theaters in New York and Los Angeles.

The Stuttgart-born Veiel has received many accolades, including
winning the Venice Film Festival’s Cinema & Arts Award for the
115-minute, heavily researched _Riefenstahl_. The multitalented
auteur’s filmography ranges from features to documentaries to the
stage. His 2011 narrative movie _If Not Us, Who?_ about Germany’s
Baader–Meinhof Gang_ _won two Berlin International Film Festival
awards and was nominated for the Golden Berlin Bear.

Why is Riefenstahl making a comeback now? Tom Jacobson, playwright
of _Crevasse_, a 2024 drama about Leni in Tinseltown,
told _Jacobin_: “As the American government successfully
manipulates public sentiment and churns out more lies than ever before
in our history (which is saying a lot), it’s critical that we
examine Leni Riefenstahl’s groundbreaking and skillful propaganda
for the Nazis. How did she do it? What were the consequences? And how
can we protect ourselves from fascist lies today?”

In this candid conversation, Veiel addresses similar points on
ideology and aesthetics, Riefenstahl’s culpability, and the truth
about just what she thought of the Nazi atrocities she witnessed.
Andres Veiel was interviewed via Zoom in New York. This interview has
been edited for clarity.

Ed Rampell

Who was Leni Riefenstahl?

Andres Veiel

Leni Riefenstahl was one of the most controversial filmmakers ever.
She made films for the Third Reich. She was supported by Adolf Hitler
himself. She made a film about the Nazi rally in 1933–34, _Triumph
of the Will_. She also made a film about the Olympic
games, _Olympia_, and she was world famous because of these films.
Many people have praised her up to today as one of the most important
filmmakers ever. Even Tarantino did. But I have a more critical
perspective on her.

Ed Rampell

Tell us about the mystical “Mountain films” Riefenstahl starred in
and directed.

Andres Veiel

She was, first of all, an actress in the 1920s. Quite a famous actress
in many of the Mountain films. She also directed 1932’s _The Blue
Light_. It’s kitsch; the storyline is very simple, but she got world
famous with these films. She got an award at the Venice Film Festival
and Hitler watched the film and engaged her, telling her: “You have
to make all these films for our party.” And that’s what she did
afterward.

She made _Triumph of the Will_ and _Olympia_, and Hitler supported
her and gave her all the opportunities, all the money she needed. It
is a dream of every filmmaker to get all of these possibilities and
chances and money and budget. That’s what she did and she got famous
with these films.

Ed Rampell

Riefenstahl is known as “Hitler’s Favorite Filmmaker.” In
addition to your documentary, Riefenstahl is also being featured in
contemporary literature and theater — as a minor character in Daniel
Kehlmann’s 2023 novel _The Director_ and the female protagonist in
Tom Jacobson’s 2024 play _Crevasse_, about Riefenstahl’s meeting
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Walt Disney. Why do you think Leni Riefenstahl is making a comeback at
this time?

Andres Veiel

First of all, for me she’s a prototype of fascism. Regarding her
aesthetics, you can experience a renaissance of her aesthetics when
you look at how the parades in Moscow are filmed – the low angle
shots on Putin, the masses, the soldiers, all with the face up. It’s
the aesthetic of the _Triumph of the Will_ and the celebration of
the healthiness, the supremacy of a nation. The contempt for so-called
others, the foreigners, the migrants, who are criminals, lunatics. We
are experiencing a renaissance of that ideology, of those aesthetics.

‘Whenever she needed something, she went to Hitler and cried and got
another half a million.’

So, Leni Riefenstahl is something we have to deal with, with her
films, with what propaganda means. That’s something we’ve got to
learn. My film is like a magnifier on all these questions, it’s an
invitation to look at Leni Riefenstahl, but also into the yearnings
and longings for this aesthetic and also the ideology. It’s a
warning out of the future.

Ed Rampell

Ray Müller made a three-hour documentary entitled _The Wonderful,
Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl_ in 1993. She was still alive at
the time and interviewed for that film. You even use clips from it in
your film. So why make yet another film about Riefenstahl?

Andres Veiel

It’s a very crucial and simple reason. We got access to her estate.
Seven hundred boxes of unknown footage, of outtakes of films, of
private movies. Her husband Horst Kettner and she filmed each other
for decades. And nobody knew about these films. There are two hundred
thousand private photos, so we could get another insight into her
character, into her denials. To go beyond the legends and lies and
look at why she had to lie. Why she had to repress so many, many –
first of all, her responsibility being part of a regime which was
responsible for sixty million deaths in World War II. And she made
propaganda for this regime.

That was one of the reasons to make this film. I had a new insight
into her life and character with a chance to look into her estate, her
archive.

Ed Rampell

Was Riefenstahl ever a card-carrying, dues-paying member of the Nazi
Party?

Andres Veiel

Well, she was not a _member_ of the Nazi Party. It was not necessary
for women to get party membership. But she was an intimate friend of
the Reich’s propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels. She was very close
to Albert Speer, the minister of war. She was very close to Hitler, of
course. Hitler supported her with lots of money. Whenever she needed
something, she went to Hitler and cried and got another half a
million.

For her, it was not necessary for her to become a member of the Nazi
Party because she got what she wanted, achieved what she liked.
Sometimes she had to cry, to shout, be charming, but in the end, she
got what she wanted. So, we have the films.

Ed Rampell

Hitler fancied himself a painter. Did he see Riefenstahl as a sort of
artistic kindred spirit?

Andres Veiel

Yes. He somehow trusted her talents. He had a feeling for her ability,
her skills. He watched _The Blue Light_, he was a fan of it. And he
felt, okay, she has this kind of talent, the skill of finding the
right image to tell the story of being strong, being healthy, being
better than — the storytelling of supremacy.

And the kitsch, which always means to magnify the beauty, to make even
larger the strength and being stronger than – that’s always the
ideology. And the disdain, the contempt for so-called weakness. This
kind of kitsch he discovered in her work. For example, in _The Blue
Light_ – that’s why he asked her, “Please, you have to make our
films, for our movement, for the National Socialist Party.”

Ed Rampell

On-screen, Riefenstahl describes experiencing Hitler’s speechmaking,
which “enthralls” her. Was she ideologically, philosophically, a
Nazi?

Andres Veiel

Yes. When you look at her story — the roots of fascism in her life
didn’t start in 1933. You can find these roots in a breeding ground
which starts much earlier. When you think about her education. She had
a very brutal father. He wanted her to learn how to swim. He’d throw
her into the water. She was close to death, about to drown and then
her reaction in her written drafts of her memoir, wasn’t: “I have
a nasty father.” Her reaction was: “I became a good swimmer.”
So, in early childhood, she learned to celebrate strength, because
being weak means being close to death. And she identified with the
aggression of the father.

‘He filmed the prologue, he broke down, he was admitted to a
psychiatrist and after some weeks he was forcibly sterilized. Leni
Riefenstahl didn’t intervene.’

Something that is part of the fascist ideology is you are stronger
than, you are cleaner, better than, it’s always a comparison and a
separation — _us_ and _them_. We are better because of our
nation, our pride, and strength. And you always have the contempt of
the other. That’s something she learned as a little girl. Normally
boys are educated like this, but she was treated like a boy. When you
think of the 1920s, all these people, the men she worked with during
the Mountain films, they came out of the ashes of World War I: We came
out even stronger — out of these cruelties, these horrors, we became
stronger. The weak ones broke down, we became stronger.

And that was a good preparation to assemble under the flag of the
Führer. So it’s the disdain, the contempt for weakness. Then the
celebration of beauty, of the victorious, of the strength, and it’s
part of the ideology. That’s something you can find in her films.

Ed Rampell

Can a fascist make great art?

Andres Veiel

No. Our film tells the story of why you can’t divorce ideology and
aesthetics. Think of _Olympia_, the high-diving scene and other
scenes, you always think, okay, it’s a film about sport. We’re
celebrating people who are stronger and quicker than others, etc.

But the dark side, or you can call it the night side of this
aesthetic, it’s also in the film, how the director of photography
Willy Zielke was treated. He filmed the prologue, he broke down, he
was admitted to a psychiatrist, and after some weeks he was forcibly
sterilized. Leni Riefenstahl didn’t intervene.

Why? Because she followed the ideology of the Nazi Party and sick
people are dangerous for the health of the people, the
so-called _volk_. So, they have to get sterilized and she was
supportive of the sterilizing of her director of photography. It’s
absurd, but it’s true.

Ed Rampell

_Triumph of the Will_ is Riefenstahl’s extravaganza about the Nazi
Party’s 1934 Congress and Nuremberg rallies. She used some
innovative cinematic techniques, such as vertical tracking shots in
specially built elevators. Prior to _Triumph_, she had only made one
actual film, _Victory of Faith_. In terms of cinema, Riefenstahl had
mainly starred in and directed feature films in Weimar Germany, in
particular, the so-called Mountain films, like 1932’s _The Blue
Light_. Do you think that what made _Triumph of the Will_ – which
really consists largely of lots of blathering by Hitler and other
fascist bigwigs – so aesthetically striking is that Riefenstahl
really shot the Nazi rallies like a feature, with the aesthetic of
fiction films, as opposed to using a more documentarian style?

Andres Veiel

When you look at the whole film, it’s a very long film, and it’s
partly very boring. It’s lots of marching soldiers. For hours, you
have the feeling people are marching through Nuremberg. But of course,
you are right. Some elements, like the elevator scene, the way the
low-angle shots on Hitler, the image of the Führer, is transferred to
an audience in a way glorifying the Führer, treating him like a
messiah. That’s the state of the art in the 1930s. It’s also still
today: you can find the style of _Triumph of the Will_ in Moscow, at
the parades of Putin.

She was edge-cutting, putting out a standard of propaganda that’s
apparent today. For me, that’s a challenge because it shows how
deep, how far-ranging her impact is up to today. And that’s a
warning, because we have to deal with the message of propaganda, even
if it’s for another aim, another goal, but propaganda is propaganda.
So, we have to deal with Leni Riefenstahl, and to analyze the means
and methods of her films, to learn something about the propaganda
films of today.

Ed Rampell

I have a terrible confession to make: I think _Olympia _is an
objectively good film and I enjoyed most of it. Does that make me a
bad person?

Andres Veiel

No, you’re not a bad person. Maybe you have to focus on the dark
side of the aesthetics, too. She’s a very good editor. You’re
right – maybe she’s the best editor in the 1930s and 1940s,
worldwide. But she made propaganda with this film for Adolf Hitler –
he appears twenty-six times in Part I of _Olympia_. So, it’s also a
celebration not only of sportsmen and sportswomen, it’s also a
celebration of Adolf Hitler. He was very proud of this film. There’s
always applause when Hitler shows up in the film.

Yes, she was a good editor. Yes, she was a good director, too. Because
she decided which director of photography should shoot which kind of
scene. She knew their skills and talents and said: “You are the one
to film this and you’re the one to film that.” And that’s
directing – she was a good director. But we have to focus on the
ambivalence and not just praise her.

Ed Rampell

The athletes are depicted as Übermenschen, the Nazis’ ideal of
supermen and women. The film does not show that German Jewish
athletes, such as high-jumper Gretel Bergmann, were prohibited from
joining the teams on the field. And how does _Olympia_ deal with
Hitler’s treatment of black track and field Olympian Jesse Owens,
the American who won four gold medals, beating the Third Reich’s
much-vaunted superior race?

Andres Veiel

It’s interesting to just listen to Leni Riefenstahl herself. Jesse
Owens is in the film, but the way she depicts him is like he is a
dangerous animal. Very ambivalent. And in a way also from a very
colonialist perspective. The same way she treats, later on, the Nuba
people in the Sudan. When you think about the scenes in the film when
she throws sweets into the group of children, it’s like an animal
feeding. She uses a stick to hit the kids.

That was very important to me to show. She’s treating the Nuba
people like a marionette, pushing them around, using them for a
specific framing. So, we have to learn how she manipulated all these
images. You can call it the backstory of being very famous.

‘Yes, she was a good editor. Yes, she was a good director, too. But
we have to focus on the ambivalence, and not just praise her.’

Some years ago, she was celebrated for the Nuba photos. There was an
exhibition in Telluride. There was some sort of naive feeling with
Leni Riefenstahl. So we have to be much more precise. That’s why I
did this film.

Ed Rampell

Tell us about Riefenstahl and accusations of war crimes.

 

Andres Veiel

The crucial point regarding her actions in Konskie, Poland as a war
correspondent is that she was an eyewitness of the first massacres of
Jews. In the second week of September [1939, after the Nazis invaded
Poland], four German soldiers were killed, and she wanted to film
their funeral, the courageous German soldiers. The Jews were forced to
dig their grave. They were hit with sticks and treated badly. She
wanted to film just the courageous, clean German soldiers, not the
dirty Jews who were digging the grave with their own hands. She was
shouting, “Jews out of the image!” Some soldiers were shouting and
suddenly the Jews ran away. One of the soldiers shot at them, then ten
soldiers, twenty soldiers shot. In the end, twenty-two Jews were
murdered.

She was responsible, not as somebody who shot, but somehow, she was a
catalyst in this. Why? Because she gave the stage direction. And
it’s written in the letter of an adjutant. That’s very
interesting, because this letter tells the story about her
involvement, being a catalyst in the massacre, because of the stage
direction. That’s very interesting to me. Then you understand why
she had to repress all her memories. She was lying when she said “I
was not an eyewitness. I didn’t know anything about these
atrocities.” Our film tries to look behind the lies, behind the
legends. What are the necessities for her to lie, to deny the truth?
This is one good example, to show her vulnerability being so involved
in these atrocities.

She wanted to film _Lowlands_ in Spain, but this was not possible.
So she looked for people who had this non-German expression and she
found them in an internment camp of Sinti Roma. They were very cheap,
she didn’t have to pay for them. In a way they were also happy to
escape the situation of being locked in the internment camp. After the
end of the shooting most of them were taken to Auschwitz and killed
there. Only half survived.

Actually, she tried to help them. But after the war she couldn’t
tell the truth because she always said “I learned about the
atrocities of the Holocaust and the killing of the Gypsies only after
the war.” It was a contradiction. Somehow, she was in a trap. She
couldn’t tell the truth, that she knew about the Holocaust, that she
knew about the threat that all these extras would be killed, be put in
Auschwitz. Somehow, she’s a tragic person.

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Contributors

Andres Veiel is an award-winning film and theater director from
Germany.

Ed Rampell is an LA-based film historian/critic and the author
of Progressive Hollywood: A People’s Film History of the United
States. His novel about the native Hawaiian sovereignty movement for
indigenous rights, The Disinherited: Blood Blalahs, will be published
this spring.

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